Cars-driven-by-compressed-air
78What are compressed air driven cars like?
There are some subjects one needs to understand technically to write about, and engines are one of them.
Science is another. The problem with the compressed air driven car is the science it is based on, not the pure mechanical operation of the motor itself.
To convert compressed air to power at the wheels means huge losses in conversion.
The car still has nowhere near the touted performance and in my view will not do much better in the future if they continue trying to get this lemon up.
The first compressed air propulsion car has been around since just after the birth of the motor car itself.
It died a quick death not because they built it wrongly, after all we have not changed chemistry physics or math that much since then.
No, they missed the same things then as now. It is massively impractical to convert to compressed air power and store it for use in a motor vehicle.
The first compressed air car was built in 1860.
First compressed air cars
The new compressed air car.
Here is an amazing picture of two early compressed air driven cars.
There were many reasons why compressed air cars were not successful then, and indeed are not marketable now, despite the many attempts every few years to makes a new compressed air driven vehicle.
Here are some of the problems. Others can be found from links on this page.
- Infrastructure costs and feasibility of fuel delivery systems.
- Energy loss due to energy conversion.
- Energy loss due to extreme temperature.
- Primary pollution from the supply of the fuel.
- A lack of horsepower
- Poor reliability compared to ICEs.
Early compressed air developments that were unsuccessful can be an authoritative guide to today's efforts too.
Despite the apparently unassailable knowledge and expertise of those associated with the new compressed air car efforts, yet again their common sense is in doubt, not their skills as engineers..
The Renault racing team development engineer who designed the motor has fulfilled many promises with the engineering, but not atypically for motor engineers he can't see the elephant in the room.
A soft-top compressed air driven mini car
Having been around engine development for about a hundred years, I have seen many advances in Internal combustion engines which this compressed air engine resembles but over the years I have seen engineers make something beautiful, many times but not see the whole picture .
Bringing new technology in to being can be misguided if it involves the transference of energy from one source to another eg; electricity to compressed air.
This involves huge energy losses all the way through the process and requires new and doubtful infrastructure as well, in the form of air compressors in filling stations that will use masses of electricity to run..
1400 psi is a lot of pressure and normal garage compressors can only produce about 150 psi, and even at this pressure works so hard they create enough heat in the process to wear out pretty quickly with daily use, and of course the heat is lost energy so that I can't see how it would be as cheap as 2 bucks to fill. Makes no sense.
The car, is hyped as "pollution free", but of course there will be enormous amounts of electricity required to fill these huge tanks to this pressure.(currently produced by filthy brown coal in Victoria and for that matter most of the world) so this is a very loose definition of pollution free. What they should have said is that the exhaust emissions are clean, not the fuel.source.
Imagine what this would cost to run?
Fueling a compressed air driven car..
Fuelling a compressed air car sounds easy and clean.
Electricity is needed to drive the air compressor needed to pump an enormous amount of air in to the tanks against aback pressure of 1400 psi.
Your local service station is not going to have enough electricity in the supply line to feed that mutha!
Claims of 70mph or 110 kph are rubbish.
The car cannot produce enough horsepower to maintain this speed.
The car as it was demonstrated never got up to traffic speed and the air motor sound like a worn out piston motor with far too much mechanical noise and very little power.
Latest compressed air car news.
April 2010. I'm still waiting for that car guys! America will have a full range of these wonders by 2010 according to the latest press. I still believe it is all Bull-dust!
They have made some cars, but they will never make it in to full production because the whole premise is wrong. Now read on to find out why.
the new compressed air car.has been featured on tv and in major press around the world for 3 years now.
Hopeful buyers are lining up
All are happy to part with a measly $8000 for a car that is 80% more fuel efficient and will do 110kph or 70mph.
This is a small very light vehicle which is touted to be able to travel 200 klms on a fill costing about $2.00
India's largest car maker Tata is involved according to several articles.
With Tata's billions in sales we have credibility laid on.
Huge Kevlar tanks hold the compressed air at 1400 psi mounted to form part of the chassis.
The air tanks are designed to split open at a pre-determined point, unloading the air through a large seam crack to reduce pressure and discharge safely in an accident.
The Australian AGE newspaper had an article in December 2007 that excited we soon to be lucky Melbournians.
$1.5 Billion dollars to be invested in Australian manufacturing plants starting with a plant right here in Melbourne.
The problem is despite the many Press write ups, this wonderful fuel saving car has yet to emerge.
I will not pretend that I am as authoritative a source as the AGE or Business Week.(who also ran a big story,) or the TV networks, but this is my hub, and I am going to say what I believe to be true anyway as my friend agvupes on hubpages asked me about the compressed air car and this is my honest answer. I respect him so I will speak without fear or favour.
My opinion is that the compressed air car project will not get off the ground.
As far as I know it has only been tested around the block because that is as far as it will go. I can find no reliable pictures or other evidence to show otherwise..
110 kph or 70 mph? NO WAY.
Baby air car
- Melbourne and the air car
This video shows a lot more detais
Compressed air driven car back seat.
Why compressed air cars won't work.
Consider the following:
A standard air compressor used in an automotive workshop to inflate tyres, run a few air tools and a tyre changer at 150 psi Costs $1800 to $3.900 dollars to buy, and uses a 7-10 hp electric motor.
But to push in 1400 psi I'd guess at upward of $100,000 each for a compressor for this application, and a lot of horsepower.
The test drives that have actually been done with this car cover only a very short distance, and I may know why.
According to some mathematical calculations if the compressed air car is driven constantly at 110kph it will only travel about 4-6klms on a full tank!
I have not done the math but it is out there on the net.
I also believe the whole process is deeply flawed in it's conception and is yet another hair-brained idea to replace ICEs.
But wait..... there's more!
A new air car has been announces for the American market that will do a 1000 klms or so with 70hp on tap. I will believe that when I drive it.
You are wise in doubting the compressed air driven vehicle agvupes.
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Age article
- Compressed air car
In this video you can see the car being driven and hear the very noisy motor
Tata Motors
- Tata Motors Page
This statement from Tata Motors They're not joking right?
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Thank you for the kind words AGVUPES, I agree, the money could have been better spent andI wish more people would save their money by understanding the simple truth of what you state.You can't get out more than you put in.
You can't convert energy without loss either.
The air car's performance relys on a lack of weight to compensate for the lack of horsepower. A better idea would have been to power it with ICE on lpg or petrol.
In this configuration the light weight would have big advantages, and a very small power plant would suffice.
BTW I think these hub-pages are great. I like the fact that we can learn from each other.
You have a heap of common sense, thank for sharing it.
I would like to know if you can make an air motor that will replace the exsisting motor in my VW calbrelet and a tank to fit in the back. I would be more willing to buy the motor than the car.
Sorry Elija, it would be twice the size of your motor and maybe one tenth of the horsepower, read the whole article tp see why.
Have you seen the new 2009 Hub Car? It runs on hot air. There's a lot of it on Hubpages.com.
I was hoping the technology for compressed air vehicles would take off, but after reading your hub, I'm doubtful. Too bad.
Hi rockinjoe. You sure say the darndest theengs!
I have not yet had your vaste experiences with hubpages, but I sure like reading your light hearted hubs.
I need a bit of what you have I reckon. When I tell jokes I get long quiet periods. Thats not good is it?
Your hub is very interesting and with full of information.Till date I don't heard about a car which can run by Compressed Air.You believe me or not but I read about the car which can be run by water,in that they may use Hydrogen from water to drive the car.I don't know it is true or not but feel it is possible.I am working in air compressor field more than 15 years.
Thank you for reading prasannasutrave.
I have another hub called run your car on water. Have a read and get back to me.
Thank you
It's funny that you mentioned the car on water stuff. While not the same as a lot of those "products," there is something nearly akin to them on the air cars. It seems like the idea of a compressed air powered car is a good intention, but, as has been said, and like the hydrogen contraptions, it's just darned bad science.
I realize I'm late to this particular party, but, nice hub all the same.
Thanks JD66, I have always wondered why such great minds come up with such useless or superfluous ideas. The internal combustion motor of today with it's capacity to vary valve and ignition timing, and finely control temperature and other factors makes them still hard to beat with a noisy complex compressor. You can still travel a lot further on a spoon full of petrol or gas than the other fuels and anyway alternative fuel is secondary to finding a fuel for the 600 million ICEs on the road now.. I have written on internal combustion engines and fuel for ICEs on several of my hubs.
Interesting read, and I have to agree. Compressed air engines have a way to go, and they will probably one day have a good use in our world, but a car may be a stretch. Short driving distances and low speeds would be needed to make these practical, and that just isn't an option for most people. They need to be flexible.
As others have said, the internal cumbustible engine has come a long ways, and there is still more we can do to make them even more fuel efficient. By teaming them up with hybrid options and other electric options, the efficiency even grows.
Thanks tyler. You are right of course. ICEs with modern engine management means great fuel econonomy and longer engine life. Before we move away from ICEs we need to find an alternative fuel to petrol for the 600 million of them that are on the road now, and will be sipping petrol for another 30 years otherwise.
Very informative. Thanks!
Hi Earnest, maybe if I check out the Clickbank marketplace I would find an e-book entitled "Run Your Car On Air." LOL!
Still on the subject of energy saving, do you remember the car which the Flintstones drove? :) :) :)
Thanks quicksand, that's pretty funny! I certainly do remember the Flintstone's car. A real rag-top!
wow great information...i am waiting for it....who doesnt want 200kms for $2....thanx for sharing....i have enjoyed reading it....your hubs are very nice....
Hi britneydavidson, I am still a non-believer. The theory is not well based, the motors so far are noisy, gutless and it is still highly unlikely that they will ever see the road in my view.
Great hub, I would have to agree that they are a bit of a pipe dream! The only "green" technology that has the infrastructure ready to cope, is Electricity. Which is a shame, because I'm routing for Hydrogen (mainly because I'm a Honda lover)
From what I hear (and I'll try digging up the link) Audi and VW have been working on some new 1.5TSD (turbo'd/Supercharged) Diesel. It claims to produce 150bhp, 140lb/ft torque, oh yeah and if in a Polo, A2 or and of the other small VAG cars, then it will get an awesome 100mpg and a pretty amazing 110g/km of co2 emissions.
That could be one awesome little car! Hopefully, this kind of progression with technology will continue untill we hit 200mpg cars.
Hello WhoArtNow, The new diesels are doing well. We could still use a lot less than 150bhp! Imagine the mileage if they cut output by a third, we would be getting close.
Lol, yeah, 50bhp should be enough to get the thing moving along nicely for the average commute. i think they've been working on the more powerful one first, because you can sell it for more (and it will apeal to the younger drivers) and then they can introduce the smaller or less powerful versions.
Good theory WhoArtNow. that would be one plenty. I have an ancient Honda mini van with 40bhp that goes like a rocket. top speed 160kph, or 100mph.
I am not an engineer but an avid paintballer. New high tech paintball guns are powered by compressed air. The compressed air tanks are fiberwrapped and can hold 4500 PSI. At the paintball feilds they provide fills for a modest cost. Usually 5 or 10 bucks and you can return allday to fill. The ram in the paintball gun works simillar to a car piston. I think this technoligy can definately be transfered to a car. Let me know what you think.
Here is a link to a compresson that can handle that type of requirment.
Granted it is used and $10,000 so the technology isnt cheap but it is possible.
Some great information, thanks!
Hi Edgar, thanks for your comments. The car has fibre tanks too. their is an enormous difference when it comes to delivering air pressure to this car's high volume tank, it take a lot more time or a lot more horsepower to get up to these sorts of figures.You hit the wall with seals and delivery well below 1400 psi you have to spend real money for the compressor to get speed. Also the volume is enormous in the car by comparison to the paint gun. The paint gun is a bag of fun, and air is a great delivery system for it.
I understand the compression losses are the big power looser in the air car system, one analyst suggested compressing the air in a gold geographical location, shipping tanks to the hot local consumers. Others suggest his multi-stage engine would be best suited for an external combustion configuration, kind of a modern steam engine.
That Guy Negre has been apparently been raising funding for air car projects for years, without a lot of success. His latest venture: Zero Pollution Motors is shooting for a fuel augmented air car for the US market.
More on air cars (& 4 video links):
Well stated. The engineering principles just don't stack up.
I think there is such a thing as a vehicle powered by compressed air, anytime a politician climbs on a bicycle there it is!
Great read earnesthub, I've heard about these here in the States for a few years now. It didn't seem feasible and after reading your reasons it seems even less so. I thought there was more hope for the car that ran on water/hydrogen but I'm not sure.
Cheers.
Thanks Ben, the water hydrogen thing I covered in another hub. I did a hub on hybrids too.
The engineering is great, the concept is as flawed as it was when it was first tried at the beginning of the car industry.
yeah, i agree this is a most important factor for any one who look to buy new car. It's cost effective, which is a most important elements
Thank you for the comment arshuman, did you read the hub?
I hope there's no safety legeslation for these things errr cars...
Fortunately there is. Another reason why this car will not make it. It will not comply with USA, British, Australian or European standards without carrying more weight. More weight and it will hardly move!
The compressed air driven car is a lemon!
Come to the ECO GEN 2010 and I will explain to you how to make this crazy idea work with my invention (recent July 2010)
Sure, always happy to be proved wrong! I am keen to learn something new whenever and wherever I can.
You will have to pardon my attachment to the first law of thermodynamics though!
Being a skeptic is easy. The chance of anything new succeeding is low. 90% of restaurants fail within their first year. Hybrid cars were mocked. So were Japanese cars. Out of all the doubt someone perseveres and succeeds. If Edison had announced that he was planning on creating light from a strip of metals, cynics would have mocked that claim too. Same with Alexander Graham Bell telling the world that he was about revolutionize communications. There are physicists who can prove that nothing travels faster than the speed of light. And other physicists who can prove that universe itself may have expanded at a rate faster than the speed of light during the first fraction of a second of its life. That phase is referred to as "inflation". My point: First get all the facts. Second, keep an open mind. Rejoice that some people are trying to find better means of transportation. Stop being an armchair know it all. You sound like someone who would ban soccer matches because you can predict the outcome, so why bother playing the match? History is littered with naysayers like you. Thank God for those who kept the faith and plowed on. Like Christopher Columbus, Magellan, Vasco da Gama, Michael Faraday, the Wright brothers and Einstein (who did not accept Newtonian dynamics). Nature holds a lot more secrets than have been revealed to us thus far. We are still in the infancy of gaining knowledge. Stay humble and be nice.
ChandraSF, your point is mute.
You tell me a bunch of common knowledge facts that are unrelated then accuse me of being an armchair know it all.
Your dismissal of the facts in this hub about compressed air cars is revealing. You offer no technical explanations because you don't have any do you?. It is not naysayers like me who litter the world, it is gullible know-it-all's who make inane comments on things they know less than nothing about who litter the world unfortunately.
I am not into banning anything, and the example you gave is again unrelated to any discussion on cars.
You can work with science and achieve a result, you can't ignore science and expect to get anything better than the compressed air car which is simply unworkable.
The compressed air car has a power to weight ratio similar to a rock. We may be in the infancy of gaining knowledge, but we do understand science.
The air car is a joke now and forever more and your bleating about Magellan and co won't change that. Individuals invested millions in several of these doomed attempts to re-invent the compressed air car that was first tried more than a hundred years ago when it proved to be useless.
All that needs to change to make this car work are the laws of science!
As for the personal attack in your comment, it is assumptive and rude.
Get a mirror, you are describing yourself not me.
Earnest,
I admire your restraint dealing with such an ignorant, meaningless comment. At least you are able to let off some steam. Q.
Thank you Quilligrapher. I did edit my typically blunt Australian response.
You are right, it did allow me to let of some air-compressed steam! Thank you for reading!
I for one am looking forward to compressed air car development, and sales! I believe it is a viable transportation choice. MDI is working on perpetual refilling with compressors on board!
When you think about polution, rising gas prices, and things like the B.P. oil disaster, air cars are looking better and better.
Many countries globally are getting on board with the manufactoring and use of air cars. I for one don't want to be left behind.
Yes change is hard to accept when a person or a society is used to a standard way of doing things. Like getting from point A to point B. But life is change my friend. So why stagnate in the mire of the petroleum industry, and the very real hazards it has brought us? Why not run on air? I'm ready to make the change as soon as the air cars hit the U.S. market!
I may even invest in this fantastic new tecnology! To me it beats the heck out of digging more holes in the ground for oil!
Run Abstract, thank you for your input. I have to disagree based on the technology behind the air car. It simply will never appear on the American market because it's power to weight ratio will not be enough to carry air bags and other safety devices.
I think you should read my article again and do some research.
Hydrogen conversion from solar power is a more viable technology.
I left a comment on your hub re the MIDI car RunAbstract.
You need to know more about mechanical devices and engineering before writing about this car.
I have designed and built motors for over 35 years now, and know my stuff. I also sold air compressors for 3 years and know what the output costs are.
If you were to check out my automotive hubs, or even read this one properly you would haul that hub down.
I am interested in truth when it comes to most things, and your hub is simply not the truth.
How much filthy brown coal would you have to burn to fill those huge tanks with air compressed to 1,400 psi? I'll tell you. Too much! The cars performance as I write this is pathetic. It is an environmental nightmare.
This hub reminds me of the steam engine cars. They did great for a couple miles then you have to put more water in them.
Well written Earnest. Straight to the point also. ;)
Thank you Sir Dent. I really do live and breath automotive engineering, and am most unhappy that so many people will lose their life savings investing in this failed conversion from electricity to high pressure air. The losses with conversion are enormous. You can fry eggs on a 150psi compressor that has been running for a couple of hours. The heat exchange loss is enormous!Imagine trying to fill two enormous tanks to 1.400 psi. Simply not feasible.
Thanks for letting me know about the compressed air cars, never read about it.
You are most welcome. I wanted to make sure people understood it's obvious shortcomings so they could know more if considering investing in the company or buying one of these things if they ever make one for sale.
Dear Earnesthub
Thank you for your excellent hub on compressed air cars. I have found your explanations and reasoning really interesting. I’d never had anything to do with engines until I started racing cars a few years ago. When exploring the workings of an ICE I figured why can’t it be done without the fuel and simply use opposing pistons and compressed air! After spending time researching this I have to agree that the possibility of a compression air engine being a practical and viable alternative to an ICE for a road going vehicles is scientifically, economically and practically, a real problem.
I love the idea of a compressed air car, because it seems so simple. However, (as you’ve written), when you explore the losses in energy conversion; it makes it very unlikely that it could ever be used as an alternative for motor vehicles; (again as you’ve written) due to the huge amount of compressed air that a vehicle would be required to carry and the energy used to generate the compressed air. An alternative fuel source would always need to provide the energy for the compressors to fill the tanks and I think people, conveniently and understandably, try to forget this fact when looking for a zero emission vehicle.
My thoughts are that when fossil fuels are no longer economically viable a combination of solar, nuclear, hydrogen and hydrodynamic power generation will come to the fore as the dominant sources for global energy production. The electricity produced by these methods would provide energy directly to motors or battery storage etc. ; rather than additional thermodynamic losses generated by running a compressor to fill air tanks.
I do wish those working compressed air vehicles the very best of luck and hope that maybe a type of hybrid, practical vehicle could one day be produced. Real life zero emissions are just not possible though, however much we want it.
Thanks again earnesthub for getting the grey cells working.
Thanks for the interesting comment Steve, you have a lot of good ideas yourself.
Just a few corrections:The tanks are to be compressed at upwards of 4000psi. A typical garage compressor will run you around 100bucks for a 2hp mini or 3to600 for a much larger 6to8hp model. All compressing at around 150psi. The cheapest 3000psi plus compressor I could find is around 500bucks running up to 10000 easy depending on size. As far as energy conversion is concerned, think about the massive amount of energy it takes to collect, process and destribute oil and gas. It's worth giving an honest chance.
Hi Paul. Thank you for the corrections, I will go through and check the data again. The volume and pressure to fill these enormous tanks to 4,000 psi would be enormous, and if you do the maths on delivering that sort of volume you will find the horsepower required for a roadside quick fill is exorbitant.
I agree we need to move away from oil and gas, but doing it by mining and converting brown coal to electricity then wasting most of it through heat loss during the fill, then again in conversion seems pretty futile to me.
earnestshub..
Not that much of optimistic review of anything in your,
as you "kindly" wrote, Your "hub"!
Mate, it's enough of pessimist, egoistic people on the net for me to spend, as I just did, time on Your Hub!!!
..//MS
agvulpes Level 3 Commenter 3 years ago
Thanks mate.
Thats a very insightful Hub and much food for thought.
Not being a qualified engineer I can't argue with any of the above facts and figures but I am pretty sure that up till now the old saying still applies . You can't get out more than you put in.
What beats me though is why do they go to all of the trouble to build a nice looking vehicle as you have shown, knowing full well that the whole concept is flawed. Millions of dollars must have been spent on this project which I'm sure could have been put to a better cause.
On the other hand if your DON'T experiment and look at new ways of doing things progress would come to a halt very quickly.
Keep the good work up.
btw that's AGVULPES. (silverfox).